Sunday, August 30, 2009

The Irony in Atheism

As I continue to read Bakunin's writings, I find a man who prides himself in logic and in his extensive knowledge on the existence of all things. In this way, I feel like I somewhat relate.
However he seems to be an Atheist, like many of my friends are, and every time I come across someone who believes that way, the same question nags me to the point of insomnia (like right now).
But before I expose the question, let me expose my foundational premises of why science and evolution has such difficulty answering it.

1. Science is systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation. (From Dictionary.com -my fastest online resource)
Thus science cannot use metaphysical components to answer its questions.
If a scientific question is asked it must be answered with scientific components. If the answer turns out to be a metaphysical one, than the question was always metaphysical.

2.In science everything has to have a beginning, because it is systematic.

3. Anything eternal is metaphysical.

Here is what I mean: If the scientific question is "How did the universe (every physical matter that we incorporate in science) begin?", then science has to prove it using non-metaphysical components. If science says that it was created by God, it would break the main premise because God is metaphysical. So I concede that through science, nothing metaphysical can be proved or disproved, according to today's definition of science.

However the question "How did the universe begin?" seems to be answered, even in science, with a metaphysical answer. Because anything eternal is metaphysical, if time and/or space were deemed eternal than it is out of science's realm.
So the only way for science to be given the opportunity to answer the above question, is to show how time/space could of come about by itself.
But, even before that, can one even imagine a point in time where time didn't exist? Even imagining that, seems to be an impossible task.

Try imagining a point in time space didn't exist? When I imagine the Big Bang theory, I always imagined that before the universe was birthed, space was present... it was just empty black space, like inside an empty jar in the dark.
It seems as if we all concede that time/space is eternal. Even if the earth were to disappear like it appeared, space and time to do the same doesn't seem reasonable or imaginable.
If in fact time and space are believed to be eternal, than the red flag goes up stating that, the answer to our existence has to be of metaphysical kind. Because what seemed to be a core truth of our physical world, is actually found to be of metaphysical origin.

If a man were to just appear, not ever having a mother or a father, not ever being a baby.... but just one day appear, science would not come close to explaining it. But, some religious people might have a field day saying things like "It is a miracle" or "Our new prophet has come". And rightfully so, because the question "how did the man come into existence?" would have to be answered with a metaphysical answer, because it denies our scientific laws.
If scientist would never attempt to explain how a man out of no where, from nothing, just appeared as a human, why then does science try to explain how time/space/inorganic/and organic matter come into existence?

It seems as if Atheism allows for the metaphysical world that it so adamantly rejects.

7 comments:

  1. I never thought about it that way! that is great! I have a couple atheist friends that are all about questioning me about my faith and i have answers but when i question them on a metephysical question they dance around it and now it makes complete sense of why they do that. They can't answer it or else it wouldnt line up with their belief or nonbelief however you look at it.

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  2. Hi College Bread. This is the first time I ever answered a question, so I hope everything goes smoothly in regards to me uploading my answer. It seems to me that the question your asking is how can atheists say there is nothing supernatural when all the knowledge we have about our lives and science in general only refers to things that are natural. Another way of stating the question would be how can God be proven false when God is outside the realm of nature where we can understand and comprehend. If we can’t understand something that is outside what we can’t understand than how can we say it isn’t there?

    An atheist does not say that there is no God. The atheist position is simply a lack of belief in a God. The burden of proof is not on the atheist to say why there is no God. The burden lies with the theist. If you didn’t believe in unicorns the burden of proof is not on you to say why unicorns don’t exist. The burden of proof is on those who say unicorns do exist to provide the evidence to make one believe so.

    I think the question you try to ask to show your metaphysics argument using science is that science can’t prove the universe is eternal for that answer would not exist (at least in a science sense). If your making the point that God could have been that start, and that God could not be an answer because it is outside of nature I would refer you to Richard Dawkins. The rebuttal that Dawkins gives for this is if God created the universe, than who created God? Now… I’m not even going to get into this argument because we could go at this forever and in the end not even get anywhere.

    The point I’m getting at here is even though science can’t explain things that are outside of nature that does not change the fact that there is still a lack of evidence to believe in a God of some kind. Now you are correct that science would not be able to answer questions of the supernatural, but that does still not provide evidence in favor of the supernatural in a metaphysical sense. So, no there is no irony in atheism due to the fact that even though science can’t answer questions about the supernatural it is still up to the believer to provide evidence in favor it, and remember the atheist position is that there is a lack of evidence to believe in a God. The burden of proof rests on the theists and it is up to them to provide sufficient evidence in support of their claim of a God. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and this is something that has not be met by the standards of atheists.

    Like I said this is my first time posting a response. I don’t know exactly how it works, but if you have any questions feel free to leave a comment and I will do my best to respond to it. Hope this helped!
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  3. Hi Skeptic Thinker,
    I am sort of confused when you say "An atheist does not say that there is no God." Based on the definition of atheism, I think you may not be an atheist.

    From dictionary.com
    a·the·ism
    –noun
    1. The doctrine or belief that there is no god.


    Here is the thing. It seems that you limit your scope to such limited grounds that
    you make God unprovable, in a way that all of our evidence is automatically
    disqualified without a second thought.
    Imagine me asking you to prove that your computer exists, and the only evidence that I will accept is metaphysical evidence. Even though you can touch and feel your computer, its existence is now unprovable.

    How can you be a skeptic when you
    limit the knowledge that you allow yourself to review? You say it is my
    burden to prove, yet you won't let me.

    No matter what you believe, you should have evidence to support it. Regardless of how you rate someone else's evidence. Going back to the previous example: if your computer is unprovable, would it be wise for me to believe that it doesn't exist? No, all I know is simply that you can't prove it the way I want you to. It may or may not exist.

    Its impossible to believe that there is or isnt a metaphysical being unless you do so by supporting your view with metaphysical evidence.

    The irony that I was speaking about in my original post was not the irony that you brought to my attention. If you read my post over you will notice that the irony that many atheists subject themselves to is created when they concede that basic metaphysical principles like "time" exist, the fact that space has always existed, and that the matter that birthed evolution or the "beginning of life" was eternal. The best interpretation of my question is: how can you limit yourself to physical evidence yet allow for so many metaphysical principles?

    Thank you for your willingness to discuss this with me. The atheists that I know don't care enough, I appreciate it.

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  4. first, College is right - atheism is the believe that there is no god. Skep, you might be thinking of agnosticism, which is the belief that "I dunno." Atheism is inherently illogical, as the non-existence of god cannot be proven.

    Eternity would be eternal, if it existed. Existence exists, that much is clear. Since we are part of the universe that exists between what we call the big bang and the big crunch, we cannot know what is or isn't outside of this universe - it is the extent of our existence. Was there a "before" the big bang? Will there be an "after" the big crunch? Does the whole cycle simply repeat itself? Are there infinite universes going through the same life-cycle? Guess. It's as good an answer as you'll get to any of these questions.

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  5. College Bread,

    There is no eternity, I bet. The universe, Heave, Hell, everything else, will all be destroyed by extraterrestrials from Galaxy Omega-Zero... By the way, seriously, if there will be no end, then why was there a beginning? Science and religion -- in one very rare moment of agreement -- both talk about a beginning -- The Big Bang, "In the beginning...". If one can imagine nothing existing "before" -- note: There is NO "before time", just as there is no north of the north-pole, according to Stephen Hawkings -- then why not nothingness existing "after"? There is no south of the south-pole, either. Of course, this all could be BS. But NONE of us know if it is or not for sure.

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  6. College Bread,

    Time, along with space, came into being at the instant of the big bang, and will cease to be at the instant of the big crunch. The concepts of "before time" and "after time" are non-sequitors, because "before" and "after" are functions of time and have no meaning outside of it.
    Legacy2000

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  7. Legacy,

    It seems that from nature or science you ecquire your beliefs.
    How then can you suggest that time had a point of non-existance? That is certainly something you cannot learn from nature or science.

    I cannot imagine "nothing existing". That is certainly not a natural concept. When I look into an empty box I can say nothing is in it. However, I'm wrong. We forget about space. What would no space look like? I cannot imagine it. Nor would science support its nonexistance.

    Whats fascinating, is that you say that you can't prove God's non-existance, yet you don't mind pinning down time's non-existance. What proof do you have? And if you have no reasons than you are no more logical than an athiest.

    Finally, what is more interesting is that you believe that the big bang was caused by absoultely nothing. How can that be scientifical? In science, nothing happens without a cause. If nothing happens without a cause, then something must have caused the universe to appear. Finally, if there was nothing to cause it, then your theory requires some metaphysical concepts.

    -College Bread

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